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Thread: Echostar 14(119) transponder 12384 intermittent problem

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    Default Echostar 14(119) transponder 12384 intermittent problem

    For the past 2-3 weeks I've had a problem with Dish channels 135 and 136 - I'm getting a NoSignal! a lot of the time. Funny thing is that I get a good picture/signal at other times. So I rescanned and still have same problem. I looked at Lyngsat and the settings for my transponder look okay. I select the sat and transponder, click on the red TP edit and see the TP#, 20000, Horizontal. Yet the signal scale at the bottom shows strength around 95 but no quality. I have an option to click the blue button for PID edit but I have no idea what to do with that. Anyone else having a problem with these channels/transponder? Anyone have any experience with editing the transponder info and suggestions on what I can do to fix this? Thanks.

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    If you are getting good picture sometimes then there should be no reason to alter or edit transponder. I feel you have a hardware problem. Coax, connections or switch.

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    I agree & it could also be caused by an LNB on the way out... they've been known to 'blink'... as it were

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    Are you having any problems with the other channels on that transponder??

    Like HBO on 303, or the Disney channel East on 172?

    If not then it's not a hardware problem, nor would it be related to just that transponder as it's the same RF level as the rest of the CONUS beams.

    I woulds suspect something local, like a WIFI interference or a cell tower or a local RF source, in this day and age with all the RF floating around there is a great chance that something can be picked up at the dish and cause a drop out on that TP.

    If we do thew math, the transponder freq of 12384 MHz down converted with the LNB's LO of 11250 MHz gives us an IF channel freq of 1134 MHz, that is very close to some cell phone and microwave oven freq's, this can cause an intermittent drop out on that TP, or if you double the freq you get it's second harmonic of 2286 MHz, that is close to some of the WIFI channels.
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    Thanks to all those who responded. I thought about the LNB since its around 6 years old and will look into it further if nothing else fixes the situation. Terryl's suggestion is very interesting. I'm having problems with all channels on that transponder, but other channels on other transponders and on the other sat, Echo10/11 seem to be fine. One thing that has happened is that I bought and switched to a wireless router since I last watched those channels without any problems. I used to use a wired router. I will try going back to the old router. I did some reading after my post. Since this transponder is Horizontal instead of vertical, does my dish need more "space"? Is it possible that a tree branch is interfering with just the horizontal transponders - that the others are okay?

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    It could be a tree branch or your wireless may be bringing in a little less signal or it also may be that your dish is slightly misaligned... if you can reach it relatively easily you can try setting the receiver to channel search on the bad TP & Sat & try tweaking the dish to see if you can get more... you will need someone else with a cell phone also to do this easily.... my bet is on bad LNB or weaker wireless signal
    Last edited by hutch; 04-20-2014 at 04:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by horhota View Post
    Thanks to all those who responded. I thought about the LNB since its around 6 years old and will look into it further if nothing else fixes the situation. Terryl's suggestion is very interesting. I'm having problems with all channels on that transponder, but other channels on other transponders and on the other sat, Echo10/11 seem to be fine. One thing that has happened is that I bought and switched to a wireless router since I last watched those channels without any problems. I used to use a wired router. I will try going back to the old router. I did some reading after my post. Since this transponder is Horizontal instead of vertical, does my dish need more "space"? Is it possible that a tree branch is interfering with just the horizontal transponders - that the others are okay?

    Well we may be on the right track, when the channels are misbehaving try turning off the WIFI router, if you need an internet connection for the receiver then switch it over to the wired one first, then wait till you get the problems back and switch off the WIFI.

    If your problems go away then you may have a bad shield or open shield on the system somewhere, and you getting a leakage into the system, or the WIFI router is in-line or very close to the receiver or dish, or the WIFI interface at the receiver is leaking too much signal back into the receiver.

    One thing that could be tried is to change the WIFI channel on the router from it's default #6 to say #8 or #11, all your equipment that is connected via WIFI will have to follow along, if the problems go away then you have found the problem.

    One thing that may happen when you do this is that you may have problems with a different transponder, if you do then you may have to go and stay wired.

    If it was spacing issues with the dish, dish alignment problems or problems with the LNB then all the "H" transponders would be having this problem, however FYI there are no "H" or "V" transponders on 110, 119 or 129, only left hand and right hand polarity's, as these satellites are circular polarity satellites.

    So the transponder your having problems with is a Left hand or counter clockwise rotation polarity, the data on the transponders "H" or "V" is left over from the linear data for the true FTA satellites, they just haven't done a proper recoding of that info.
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    the intermittent signal could mean that your pan is loose and subject to the wind moving it in and out of alignment..... think outside the box.
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    Thanks to everyone for the great response and a lot of good ideas. This morning I went back to the wired router and the signal came in great. But it occurred to me that I should have checked the channels first to be sure the signal problem was down before I did the switch. So I went back to the new wireless router and surprise signal was as good as the old wired router. Both had 90 odd percent strength and quality. Problem usually occurs around this time of the evening so I checked again now and the signal is still good on wireless router. The only thing that happened to the wireless router was that it was powered down and back up again. First time it was rebooted so maybe that did something. Don't really know at this point. So now I wait until the problem occurs again and then I'll do more testing and exploring. Intermittent problems are so much fun! Thanks again to everyone. I'll report back when I know something more.

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    I said I would report back. For Sunday and Monday and most of Tuesday I thought that I had found the problem - interference from the router - and solved it. On Monday morning I even changed the router to not auto-channel and stay on ch11. Checked all the channels I normally watch and everything was great. Same Monday evening and Tuesday morning. My routine check on Tuesday night showed the problem was back. I removed the router -went back to wired router - still down. Shut/powered off the only other wireless device I have - a tablet, and microwave was also off. So checked again Wed. am - all signals were back strong and good. Wed night, down again. This time I channel surfed and found all transponders between 12297 and 12455 were down. By down I mean that I got a NoSignal message and pressing the info button on the remote showed that the leftmost slider (strength?) which is normally blue had a grey line about the same level(90%) as the regular blue line, and the right slider(quality) was empty. I've checked my wiring at the dish, at the receiver, and its all good. I believe as Terryl suggested that it is some kind of interference but I don't think its coming from within my home. If that's the case, is there anything I can do about it? I live in a residential neighbourhood - no businesses or cell towers nearby. This morning at 7am the problem was still there - I had no signal - but now the signal is great - normal. Is there any kind of shielding I can install and if so where would I install it - at the receiver or at the dish? I posted most of this last night but I got forgot to save it. So anyone can help with this it would be truly appreciated.

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    OK, you have a tough problem to solve without some special equipment.

    It could be a neighbors new WIFI/cell phone/WIFI device doing this as you reported that it started about 2 weeks ago, as you have checked all the hardware, and the problems came back then it could be some sort of software glitch in the receiver, but as no one has reported the same types of problems then that could possibly be ruled out. Have you done any software updates in that 2 to 3 week window?

    If you have a laptop with a built in WIFI you can download some monitoring software that will tell you whats around you and how strong, some cell phone with WIFI or Iphone/Ipads can do the same thing.

    Here is one for Apple, but it requires a special hardware insert, go to the web site mentioned in the app.
    Code:
    https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/wipry/id442143525?mt=8
    it will monitor the WIFI band.

    There are others.

    Now, the problem could be out in front of the dish, if you can, go take a photo looking from the back of the dish looking over the top, if you cant then don't worry about it.

    Or go to dishpointer.com and enter your location, select one of the satellites your dish is pointing to, this will give you a map with a line on it, you can zoom in and out following the line and see whats out in front of the dish.

    Airports, large commercial/industrial areas, collage's, university's, or Government/Military buildings can be a problem.

    Now if the dish is not at a low to the ground elevation it may be fixable if it is outside RF interference from a local/semi local source.

    A aluminum screen can be used to block the ground terrestrial signals, but the dish can't be at a low elevation or it will not work, any idea what your dish elevation angle is?
    Last edited by Terryl; 04-24-2014 at 05:25 PM.
    ♫♫♫ I知 a lumberjack and I知 OK ♫♫♫ I drink all night and sleep all day. ♫♫♫



    Coming soon to a crop circle near you.....

    There is a 66 and third % chance that I'm on the right planet...

    "I'm happier then a Jackalope in a balloon factory"

    "First rule of testing satellites"
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    "Second rule of testing satellites"
    "If you did mess with it, and now it doesn't work, can you blame someone else?"

    "Third rule of testing satellites"
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    "Can you HIDE it"?

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    Thanks for your time and effort putting together your reply. To answer your questions, I have not done any software updates to the Nano Premium within the past months. I took a look at the apple wispy tool - I don't have an iphone or mac so I googled for a Windows alternative. Found a few tools so I'm going to ask a guy I know who works in business networking if he has any suggestions. If not, I'm going to try one called NetSurveyor and see what it does. I'm using Linux on my computer and it gives me a list of wifi signals - networks both broadcast and hidden, and it doesn't show anything with strength except mine. But it's only looking for networks/routers. My neighbour has a wireless network but his network has been running for years now without any issues and he told me this afternoon that he hasn't made any changes recently or added any new wireless devices/phones etc. I went to dishpointer.com, a very interesting site. It just shows a line going out over a residential subdivision into a wooded area, over a waterway and then into more wooded area - I'm going out to about 5 miles as the crow flies. Dish elevation I'm getting from dishpointer and another satellite aiming website and they are saying 26-31 degrees. Having only worked with this dish, I'm not sure how low to the ground this is considered. I think I've answered most of your questions. I'll give you the wifi analysis as soon as I find out what software to get - either the package I mentioned or another - and get it. Again thanks for the time and effort you're spending on this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by horhota View Post
    Thanks for your time and effort putting together your reply. To answer your questions, I have not done any software updates to the Nano Premium within the past months. I took a look at the apple wispy tool - I don't have an iphone or mac so I googled for a Windows alternative. Found a few tools so I'm going to ask a guy I know who works in business networking if he has any suggestions. If not, I'm going to try one called NetSurveyor and see what it does. I'm using Linux on my computer and it gives me a list of wifi signals - networks both broadcast and hidden, and it doesn't show anything with strength except mine. But it's only looking for networks/routers. My neighbour has a wireless network but his network has been running for years now without any issues and he told me this afternoon that he hasn't made any changes recently or added any new wireless devices/phones etc. I went to dishpointer.com, a very interesting site. It just shows a line going out over a residential subdivision into a wooded area, over a waterway and then into more wooded area - I'm going out to about 5 miles as the crow flies. Dish elevation I'm getting from dishpointer and another satellite aiming website and they are saying 26-31 degrees. Having only worked with this dish, I'm not sure how low to the ground this is considered. I think I've answered most of your questions. I'll give you the wifi analysis as soon as I find out what software to get - either the package I mentioned or another - and get it. Again thanks for the time and effort you're spending on this.
    I'm retired, I have all the time in the world to work on this until they pull the plug on me and send me back for recycle. (or I run out of Scotch)

    This helps me from going all bat a** crazy, I'm a retired RF engineer, so this is fun.
    ♫♫♫ I知 a lumberjack and I知 OK ♫♫♫ I drink all night and sleep all day. ♫♫♫



    Coming soon to a crop circle near you.....

    There is a 66 and third % chance that I'm on the right planet...

    "I'm happier then a Jackalope in a balloon factory"

    "First rule of testing satellites"
    "If its working fine now, then don't mess with it"

    "Second rule of testing satellites"
    "If you did mess with it, and now it doesn't work, can you blame someone else?"

    "Third rule of testing satellites"
    "If you did mess with it, and it doesn't work now, and you can't blame someone else"
    "Can you HIDE it"?

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    Well I hope you're not recycled for a while. As far as being retired, likewise but I got sucked back in when the company I was with downsized and wanted someone to work a few days a week to keep things running. That was four years ago and counting. Okay, I was going to get some software and see what it showed. Well, without any apple devices. the best thing I could find was Network Surveyor. I got it and its running on a laptop beside me. But it is a "network discovery" tool. Lots of really interesting charts and stuff but it basically just shows 6 or 7 beacons or networks in my vicinity - all appear to be home networks. I can see a Channel Timecourse, Channel Heatmap, Channel spectrogram etc but I don't think this is what you were looking for, at least not in terms of the frequency/channel. The web site says it shows RF interference but I can't find how to see it. (The Nano signal is down right now but there's nothing unusual on the charts) I took it to a commercial area and found a bunch of company networks but they all looked normal. Somehow I think we're after something else. Back to the beginning, my initial problem was with TP12384, which if you adjust for my LNB freq of 11250, gives a freq of 1134. Even if we go with the 2nd Harmonic at 2286, these wifi networks start at 2412 and go to 2462(plus/minus 40mhz). Going back to my shortwave radio days as a kid, there's a lot of space between 2286 and 2412(2370-2452). I've googled to infinitum looking for some other programs but, without paying $100s I don't see anything. Don't get me wrong - this is an interesting situation and I'm learning a lot and I'd really love to pin this down but there's got to be a reality check. I've got a plenty of TV through cable and antenna - I just use the dish for fun and to record a handful of shows that I don't already get and hope to watch someday when I have spare time. The couple of shows that I'm losing now I've managed so far to torrent download. Back to the problem, yesterday I started doing hourly checks and I came up with the idea that this may be some kind of dusk to dawn system (security system?). Wish I had more to contribute. Again thanks for your help. I agree it's fun but I don't want to waste your time either.
    Last edited by horhota; 04-25-2014 at 11:31 PM. Reason: corrected googling to for other program

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    Try this one,
    Code:
    http://www.rfspecialties.com/formulas/RFSpec-IM/IM.htm
    it should work if you cut down on the length of the frequency. (if needed)

    Like.... find the IF frequecy of the transponders by taking the LO of 11250 MHz and deduct it from the TP frequency, this will give you the IF.

    Then put several frequency's from the WIFI in the mix and see whats close to your transponder problem.
    ♫♫♫ I知 a lumberjack and I知 OK ♫♫♫ I drink all night and sleep all day. ♫♫♫



    Coming soon to a crop circle near you.....

    There is a 66 and third % chance that I'm on the right planet...

    "I'm happier then a Jackalope in a balloon factory"

    "First rule of testing satellites"
    "If its working fine now, then don't mess with it"

    "Second rule of testing satellites"
    "If you did mess with it, and now it doesn't work, can you blame someone else?"

    "Third rule of testing satellites"
    "If you did mess with it, and it doesn't work now, and you can't blame someone else"
    "Can you HIDE it"?

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